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You must sign in to post. | Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 12, 2012 @ 10:53pm |
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 ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | You ALL do this and it's infuriating!
Look at this position and TRY to figure it out:
White/Yellow vs. Blue/Purple
Yellow is moving away from support. That is, he is moving AWAY from his partner. White and Yellow need to capture the Blue planet in the East in order to win (gaining a 3-2 advantage in planets.) When Yellow send the bulk of his ships to the Purple planets in the North--THE GAME IS LOST! And the reason it's lost is very simple: White can't get to the Yellow home planet in the West in time to support it from an attack by Blue.
In other words:
In situations such as this, most players believe that Yellow should launch all-out at Purple while White launches all-out toward the Yellow home planet to support him. THIS DOESN'T WORK!! Purple just sits and defends while Blue easily captures the Yellow home planet before White gets there.
Two big planets produce 4 ships/sec. Purple generates at least 16 ships before the Yellow ships arrive. The big Yellow fleet (whether it's 50, 75 or 100) is simply WASTED being sent into the easily defended cluster.
Another variation is that Yellow launches all-out at Purple and White launches all-out at Purple, sending his fleet straight down the middle. This loses, too!! This is the "Go fer teh clusterz" strategy, where everyone piles ALL of their ships into the two planets. Just... stop... doing it. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 13, 2012 @ 10:31am |
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 esparano
Joined: Nov 5, 2009
Posts: 1439 | Agreed. If yellow and purple both start with the same number of ships, and purple has more production, yellow can't hope to accomplish anything by attacking purple. I feel like this is common sense but escapes the majority of players. post updated on Sep 13, 2012 @ 10:32am | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 13, 2012 @ 1:50pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | Esperano wrote:
I feel like this is common sense but escapes the majority of players.
It IS common sense, but if you're a teenager with ADHD, you're probably NOT going to see it. For most of the people here, you crank the firing default up to 75 or 100 and then simply slam ALL your ships into teh clusterz.
When I'm playing White in this position and my partner blows the game by making this stupid move, I get the complaint that I wasn't moving FAST ENOUGH, and if I had immediately sent ALL my ships at teh clustr, we would have won. NO, we would NOT have won! If White/Yellow win after this dumb move, it's because the other team did something even more retarded. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 13, 2012 @ 8:01pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | 
DOESN'T work!
Here's a screenshot showing the same thing:
Blue attacks the Yellow planets in the North, moving away from his partner, White. He should be helping to capture the Red cluster in the West. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 14, 2012 @ 4:04pm |
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 KlR4
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
Posts: 644
Location: House Lannister | This is actually a very good point...
+1 | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 14, 2012 @ 7:10pm |
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flojobaby Joined: Jul 10, 2012
Posts: 3 | You ALL do this and it's infuriating!
Look at this position and TRY to figure it out:
White/Yellow vs. Blue/Purple
Yellow is moving away from support. That is, he is moving AWAY from his partner. White and Yellow need to capture the Blue planet in the East in order to win (gaining a 3-2 advantage in planets.) When Yellow send the bulk of his ships to the Purple planets in the North--THE GAME IS LOST! And the reason it's lost is very simple: White can't get to the Yellow home planet in the West in time to support it from an attack by Blue.
In other words:
In situations such as this, most players believe that Yellow should launch all-out at Purple while White launches all-out toward the Yellow home planet to support him. THIS DOESN'T WORK!! Purple just sits and defends while Blue easily captures the Yellow home planet before White gets there.
Two big planets produce 4 ships/sec. Purple generates at least 16 ships before the Yellow ships arrive. The big Yellow fleet (whether it's 50, 75 or 100) is simply WASTED being sent into the easily defended cluster.
Another variation is that Yellow launches all-out at Purple and White launches all-out at Purple, sending his fleet straight down the middle. This loses, too!! This is the "Go fer teh clusterz" strategy, where everyone piles ALL of their ships into the two planets. Just... stop... doing it.
Actually, that's exactly what yellow should do. Let's face it, white and yellow are immediately at a huge disadvantage. Attacking blue accomplishes nothing! If purple is any good, he or she will inevitably retaliate and maintain the advantage by either seizing yellow's home planet or supporting blue's.
On the other hand, I would argue that yellow's move depicted above leads to the highest (though still low) chance of success. When yellow attacks purple, blue's best move is to capture yellow's home planet which gives white a brief window of opportunity to capture blue's home planet and then move on to purple's. Otherwise, blue reinforces purple which is better yet for white and yellow. By sending 75%, yellow leaves just enough ships to defend against an instantaneous capture while also sending enough to avoid adverse attrition and threaten purple. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 14, 2012 @ 7:58pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | frojobaby wrote:
Actually, that's exactly what yellow should do. Let's face it, white and yellow are immediately at a huge disadvantage.
No, they are not.
The influence of planet production is relative to the total number of ships on the screen. Blue/Purple have 200 ships and are out-producing White/Yellow by 2sh/sec. That means their fleet expands at about 1% a second. That's not a lot. HOWEVER, once you start exchanging ships in large numbers, that advantage increases. Therefor:
--If you are DOWN in planets, you do not want to force a huge exchange of ships for no strategic purpose.
--If you are UP in planets, you want to maintain your position while forcing the exchange of as many ships as possible.
Yellow firing 75 ships at Purple doesn't capture the cluster. It only takes 150 ships out of the game: which benefits B/P.
Attacking blue accomplishes nothing!
Holding the three non-cluster planets is the only chance Y/W has. They CAN'T capture the cluster.
! If purple is any good, he or she will inevitably retaliate and maintain the advantage by either seizing yellow's home planet or supporting blue's.
B/P have the positional advantage, so they DEFEND. They aren't forced to move. If their firing default is set to 25%, they can send out some TINY fleets, but they aren't trying to capture anything.
On the other hand, I would argue that yellow's move depicted above leads to the highest (though still low) chance of success. When yellow attacks purple, blue's best move is to capture yellow's home planet which gives white a brief window of opportunity to capture blue's home planet and then move on to purple's.
No. You're wrong. Look at the situation you're suggesting:
While this is a Diamond position, W/Y are effectively attacking B/P "head-on." Can you see that? If you're DOWN in planets, you can't simply attack head-on into the enemy position without using any sort of strategy.
AND YOU ALL DO THIS!!!!!
Otherwise, blue reinforces purple which is better yet for white and yellow. By sending 75%, yellow leaves just enough ships to defend against an instantaneous capture while also sending enough to avoid adverse attrition and threaten purple.
Huh??
Yellow sends 75 ships crashing into the cluster--and gains nothing! it's not part of any greater "plan" but just to wrack-up a bunch of ships as soon as the screen opens. B/P just have to sit there while you waste ALL your ships in a pointless frontal attack. Then, once all the ships have been exchanged, B/P's 50% advantage in production becomes decisive and you lose instantly.post updated on Sep 14, 2012 @ 8:03pm | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 14, 2012 @ 9:16pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | Only people who don't actually play the game--like Socratic--believe White can "feed" or "springboard" his ships into the Yellow planet and then make it all the way to the far end of the board to force a capture of the Purple cluster. It doesn't work. Period. yes, if P/B blunder and attack in force at the weaker position, W/Y may capture something, but you can't count on the other guy to make a mistake.
W/Y have to force B/P to move. If they attack head-on, B/P just sit there and don't have to move. W/Y lose after wasting all their ships.
In situations like this, many players believe that moving fast and swiping like crazy will get them an advantage. It doesn't. Blue has a tiny fleet heading toward White the moment the screen opens, so White can't just start swiping at 100% unless he wants to lose his home planet immediately (and for no strategic advantage.) | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 15, 2012 @ 7:56am |
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flojobaby Joined: Jul 10, 2012
Posts: 3 | 1. Yellow and white are at an immediate disadvantage! They are immediately down tactically as well as positionally and in fleet numbers.
a) tactically because yellow and white must act first and coordinate their attacks while blue and purple need only adjust to the opposition
b) positionally not only because purple and blue have more planets but also because white and yellow are farther apart
c) fleet numbers as a nascent disadvantage
2.
Not what I'm proposing^^ Of course, if blue doesn't move, white shouldn't attack blue. I agree that white and yellow want to keep attrition to a minimum as much as possible.
The main problem with your approach is that you somehow expect White to get to Blue before Purple has time to react. Also, you assume Blue will sit there and do nothing. You're trying to force Purple, who is in the best position, to make a move. He or she can only be directly threatened by Yellow.
What I'm proposing forces Blue to make the move. Blue can either support Purple or attack Yellow. This gives White the opportunity to capture Blue and then head for Purple. When White threatens Purple, Blue will reinforce Purple's pair of planets. Either way, the bulk of Blue's and Purple's ships end up at the top cluster. If White is slick, he or she will have the chance to capture Blue, thereby securing three of the home planets. It's the same end result, but this strategy is more reasonable. That is, it makes less assumptions. You assume that Purple is slow, White is fast, and everyone is using 25%... | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 15, 2012 @ 11:42am |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | Socratic wrote:
ok Ipcress noob you only speak for the noobs. People like me don't swipe 100 unless it's necessary.
HAHAHA!!!
You and the other 100%tards do it ALL the time! The game starts and you throw ALL of your ships at one target and just keep swiping. And when you LOSE, you blame your partner for not swiping as fast. Ridiculous. Most of the time you have no idea what you're doing.
By the time ur sucky 25% fleet hits my home it's already re-produced enough to fend off the pathetic assault.
You REALLY don't get it.
My second 25% shot is 17 ships. They're heading to your planet, which is about 6 seconds away.
You fired 75 ships at the start of the game--like you do every game--leaving 25 ships on the planet. Yeah, in those 6 seconds, your planet is going to produce 12 ships, but since you're geared-up to 75-100%, you have to be very careful firing that second shot. If you were firing at 25%, you could stream just enough ships off your planet, leaving precisely the right amount to defend against my approaching 17sh fleet. BUT, at 75-100%, you CAN'T fire with any precision. What nearly ALL of you do is to fire your 75% shot--manage your giant fleet-- and then wait for my small fleet to hit your home planet before firing again from there. Now, do the math, little kid:
You've left 25sh on your home planet. In this example, it's a non-strategic planet: the fighting is going on at the other end of the screen. By the time my 17sh fleet hits your planet (6 sec away) you have 12 more ships there, or, 37sh total. My fleet hits your planet. It doesn't matter that my fleet failed to capture your home planet: my 17 ships tied-down 37 of yours. In other words, your defense was INEFFICIENT. You wasted ships by keeping them on the planet when they could have been heading toward the more strategic part of the field.
Get that. Socratic?
When your firing ratio is set really HIGH, you can't defend accurately.
And playing ACCURATELY gives you a huge advantage over the other team. You're not WASTING ships on defended planets and you're not capturing with excessive amounts of ships.
you are slow and lose because 25% captures a planet 4 times as slow as 100%. Silly ipcress. Acts like he knows how to play the game phhhhhh
Wrong AGAIN!
If we each have one planet and you fire 100% and I fire 25%--GUESS who wins??
Your 100 ships take several seconds to buzz-through the 75 I have on my planet. However, my 25 capture YOUR home planet quicker. You're defending with about 8-10 ships.
That means I hold TWO planets for a couple of seconds.
NOW I can gear-up and we can "whipsaw" back and forth--but in the end, I'll win, because I always capture before you do.
Your strategies make no sense because you DON'T PLAY.
Your criticism that I "play slowly" is based on YOUR misreading the position and sending too many ships in the wrong direction.
You play the game on a very, very basic level.
For you, Galcon is more of an athletic event to see who is the fastest swiper. You can't really figure the game out, so you make wild, unpredictable moves. You lose a lot and you can't figure out why you're losing, so you just stop playing. Then you become the forum loudmouth: posting to every thread, but never playing. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 15, 2012 @ 12:00pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | flojobaby, read my posts and try and figure out what I'm trying to get across. If Purple moves ships to defend Blue, THEN he's vulnerable to an attack from Yellow. Get it? That's the way the game works. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 15, 2012 @ 12:11pm |
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dart2012 Joined: Jun 7, 2012
Posts: 59 | You ALL do this and it's infuriating!
Look at this position and TRY to figure it out:
White/Yellow vs. Blue/Purple
Yellow is moving away from support. That is, he is moving AWAY from his partner. White and Yellow need to capture the Blue planet in the East in order to win (gaining a 3-2 advantage in planets.) When Yellow send the bulk of his ships to the Purple planets in the North--THE GAME IS LOST! And the reason it's lost is very simple: White can't get to the Yellow home planet in the West in time to support it from an attack by Blue.
In other words:
In situations such as this, most players believe that Yellow should launch all-out at Purple while White launches all-out toward the Yellow home planet to support him. THIS DOESN'T WORK!! Purple just sits and defends while Blue easily captures the Yellow home planet before White gets there.
Two big planets produce 4 ships/sec. Purple generates at least 16 ships before the Yellow ships arrive. The big Yellow fleet (whether it's 50, 75 or 100) is simply WASTED being sent into the easily defended cluster.
Another variation is that Yellow launches all-out at Purple and White launches all-out at Purple, sending his fleet straight down the middle. This loses, too!! This is the "Go fer teh clusterz" strategy, where everyone piles ALL of their ships into the two planets. Just... stop... doing it.
FAIL AGAIN!
All you need for that, is 100% and to know how to either psych them out, or float around them, (AKA. DISTRACT THEM!) until your teammate takes out the other home... don't be stupid IPCRESS, learn how to play good... | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 15, 2012 @ 6:08pm |
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esparano
Joined: Nov 5, 2009
Posts: 1439 | Here is a thread I created in response to this thread:
http://www.galcon.com/forums/14/15/6879/?cur=0#116554 | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 16, 2012 @ 6:07pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | This is how it's done.
I have the planet in the North and two in the west. White has the other four planets.
Instead of moving against the three enemy planets in the South (teh clustr), I only need to take the enemy planet in the East for a 4-3 advantage. Attacking South from my two planets in the West LOSES.
 | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 16, 2012 @ 6:17pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | Losing with Quantum.
My partner, Red starts with the planet in the West. I have the planet in the South. I'm attacking the Blue planet in the East, expecting some support from my partner. But, do I get any support? No. Of course not. Red, in the West, takes all his ships and heads downfield to teh clustr in the North. Think he'll capture the three Yellow planets? Of course not. The Yellow cluster produces 5sh/sec and Red is 5 seconds away. Do the math. I resign my ships to my partner and watch as he uselessly attacks the enemy position head-on. The only viable strategy in this position was to concentrate on the Blue home planet in the East. Going fer teh clustr FAILS.
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dart2012 Joined: Jun 7, 2012
Posts: 59 | Actually if you double on "teh clustr" the you would have the cluster, and you would out-produce your enemy. Then if blue feeds him everything, just quickly re-direct to blue's home, and before yellow can react blue is dead, and then feed every last ship into that home, then yellow would be forced to surrender...
I've won games like that hundreds of times... | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 16, 2012 @ 9:09pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | Dart wrote:
Actually if you double on "teh clustr" the you would have the cluster,
No you wouldn't. The Red planet in the South is too far away. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 16, 2012 @ 9:33pm |
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dart2012 Joined: Jun 7, 2012
Posts: 59 | hmmmmmmm perhaps, BUT it has happened before, I watch my enemies and teammates, and learn new strategies to go against those enemies. I use re-directing, for two reasons only! to distract my enemies and buy more time for my teammate, and I realized my old strategy, was useless. I was used to never re-direct, but then I started re-directing, and then I learned how to psych out my enemies, and use one planet to punch through their defenses, there is always a chance they have over-expanded, and I try to take advantage of that. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 17, 2012 @ 8:00am |
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sidekick 
Joined: Jun 20, 2009
Posts: 1808
Location: Doylestown, PA | Dart, the fake-out and double fake-out moves I taught you do not but time. As a matter in fact, it wastes time. But instead the enemy empties his ships to support his partner, and you quickly go back to your original spot and attack. | | Re: Why You Lost: Moving Away From Support :: Sep 18, 2012 @ 1:37pm |
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ipcress
Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 1790
Location: Get off my lawn! | Dart wrote:
hmmmmmmm perhaps, BUT it has happened before,
People make stupid moves all the time. But you don't play poorly HOPING that your opponent will play worse.
You're trolling at this point. I've played way, WAY more 2v2 games than you (OR Socratic, for that matter.) I know how people play. You and Socratic come here and have nothing to say but, "Everyone else doesn't play that way." I KNOW everyone else doesn't play that way--THAT'S WHY I'm writing threads to explain to players the rationale behind this strategy!
2v2 is a TEAM game, and if you and your partner can play well as a TEAM, you'll have an advantage over the other team. Do you understand that? YOU do not play well as part of a team. Your big fleet hovers around and you make wild erratic moves to "fake out" your opponent. Well, guess what? Your partner gets faked out, too! You're moving too fast to watch the entire screen, you don't know what you're partner is doing, your ships are always poorly placed and you waste your forces almost as soon as the game starts. You don't care about making poor strategic moves because you think you can move fast enough to compensate. Against good players, you can't.
You and Socratic keep talking about, "You take this planet and then you take that planet, blah, blah, blah..." Neither of you can see the relationships between the speed of the ships, planet production, and the rate at which ships exchange. There's a certain balance between all these factors and what your strategic objectives are. And YOU don't get it. So, stop posting here with your retarded hovering strats and your Super-Swipe tactics. Start your own thread.
Yeah, it may appear to you that I'm moving "slowly," but in most cases I'm defending or slowing down the attrition rate until my partner and I have a strategic advantage. I'm NOT just "firing 25% at everything." You really have no understanding what I'm talking about and your responses in this thread prove this. Go start your own thread and stop annoying me here.post updated on Sep 18, 2012 @ 1:38pm |
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