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Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jun 28, 2012 @ 10:04pm

 wezley007

Joined: Jun 12, 2011
Posts: 732
Location: World of Wezley

Never! I'm just stating a fact
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jun 28, 2012 @ 10:17pm

 sidekick

Joined: Jun 20, 2009
Posts: 2047
Location: Doylestown, PA

A real troll though... Most here have things actually interesting to say.
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jun 29, 2012 @ 1:57pm

 wezley007

Joined: Jun 12, 2011
Posts: 732
Location: World of Wezley

I say what ever you guys want me to say.
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jun 30, 2012 @ 3:29pm

 tim_saxton

Joined: Feb 23, 2011
Posts: 1297
Location: "Cleaning" your Zigs....

Deputy
Say, "Tim is always right".
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jun 30, 2012 @ 5:39pm

 deception

Joined: Sep 17, 2010
Posts: 761
Location: Colorado

i eat waffles with bacon and fish. Blink knows what I'm talking about (although he prefers the fish pancakes).

That is my knowledge i'm willing to give.
post updated on Jun 30, 2012 @ 5:40pm
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 3, 2012 @ 12:34am

 tim_saxton

Joined: Feb 23, 2011
Posts: 1297
Location: "Cleaning" your Zigs....

Deputy
+1 deception
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 3, 2012 @ 2:46pm

 KlR4

Joined: Jan 5, 2012
Posts: 1564
Location: House Lannister

nanno said:
KIR4, your assertion that all humans have the same dietary requirements because they are genetically the same species is absolute bunk. Horses are also genetically the same species as each other, but they all have very different dietary requirements depending on their genetics. People who raise animals such as horses understand that their very different individual genetic makeup allows them to digest or not digest certain roughages and grains. They're all different from their metabolism to the specific enzymes in their bodies, which can make one horse require a heavy amount of alfalfa and grain in his diet just to maintain weight while another would founder and die on the same. And don't try to tell me that my horse who is allergic to alfalfa got his food allergy from enriched wheat flour! Horses eat one of the most "natural" diets on the planet (fresh grass, unprocessed whole grains, etc.) and yet they too have allergies and widely differing metabolic requirements from one another. I see no reason why people aren't very much alike in this regard. 

Take your heavy vegetable recommendation, for example. Well, it won't work for someone like Phil who gets violently sick on vegetables, will it? The fact that you say people should avoid dairy foods tells me you're out of your depth. I do better on dairy foods than anything else. I believe I could be almost perfectly healthy on a diet of nothing but milk and cheese because it works for me. My body loves and craves these foods and does very well on them. Yours may not. I can accept that about you, so you should accept that my body requires heavy doses of daily dairy. I've been known to drink as much as half a gallon of milk per day. Now I'm down to about one quart per day. I've known women who struggled with bone density problems whose bone density increased significantly just by drinking one glass of milk per day. Milk is seriously awesome stuff. For my body, it's the "perfect food". It's ok if it's not perfect for you. Maybe you can't metabolize it properly. But don't tell me it's bad for my health because it simply is not.

Good points. I don't know if perhaps horses have been selectively bred and that's the cause of their differences, but I guess it makes sense.

Also, I suppose humans could be individually different in dietary needs and adaptations. We all know that some people can digest lactose (aka dairy/milk), presumably because they can produce lactase enzyme to digest it, but others cannot. I also remember reading that some humans have more amylase-coding genes than others, so they can digest carbs better.

And here's the 5-yr old study actually:
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v39/n10/abs/ng2123.html 

More info and plain english summary of the findings and implications can be found here, if anyone is interested.
http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news62 

It's really incredible and true evidence of how different human populations have evolved differently a bit, even at a genetic level! So I suppose I was wrong that we are all the same, lol.

I also agree with your 'pregnant women' reference.

BUT, as far as the B12 supplements, it's likely they were using inferior-quality supplements with either bad manufacturing (bad company), too low potency (need at least 1000 mcg/day), and/or wrong chemical form (need methyl-cobalamin, not cyano-cobalamin). Methyl-cobalamin actually IS the natural form of B12 that is found in nature, produced by bacteria. A high quality B12 supplement is sufficient though to deal with B12 deficiency.
post updated on Jul 3, 2012 @ 2:46pm
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 3, 2012 @ 3:13pm

 KlR4

Joined: Jan 5, 2012
Posts: 1564
Location: House Lannister

nanno said:
If all humans' bodies work the same way and have the same requirements, then it only follows logically that everyone is going to have the same food allergies if they eat the same diet as one another. But obviously that's not the case. My brother and I grew up on the same diet, but as far as I know, he's the only person in our entire family history ever to get hives from a cantaloupe. 

But then, allergies and reactions are tricky things. I'm one of the only people I know who is not allergic to poison ivy. I don't tend to react very much to stings or insect bites either. Mosquitoes tend to avoid me and hit Phil. But if there's a cold going around, I'm more likely to get it than Phil. Whodathunk? What I'm saying is that we're all very unique and our bodies react to things differently from each other, regardless of the fact that we are the same species.  

I have a funny story about one of my great-grandfathers. When he was 96 his doctor told him he had to stop eating those deep-fried southern foods and decadent desserts that my great-grandmother had been preparing for him his whole life, and that he had to quit smoking (he'd been smoking 2 packs of Camels a day since he was 15 years old). He tried the health food diet and tossed the cigarettes but was so unhappy that he began to waste away. After about two months he went back on his high cholesterol, high blood pressure diet, declaring that if old age didn't kill him the health food diet surely would! He lived about two more years and died a happy man, cigarettes and all. 

This story serves to illustrate the point that being happy is probably more important than the specifics of your diet. I tried eating an organic gluten-free, dairy-free pizza one time and it tasted horrible. The "cheese" (if you could call it that) tasted like plastic with fake microwave popcorn butter flavoring on it. I would not be happy on such a diet. I believe quality of life is more important than (and a huge contributor to) quantity of life, and quality of life for me includes things like milk, steak, pizza, Dr. Pepper, coconut cream pie, Texas cheese fries, ice cream, flaky pie crusts properly made with real lard, fresh peaches swimming in cream and sugar, Oreo cookies, popcorn dripping with melted butter, and did I mention BACON drenched in real maple syrup? 

If you ask me, jogging for 20 minutes in the LA smog will probably do you more harm than any of the foods mentioned above.

But seriously, what is the point of living a long time if you're going to deny yourself all the things that make life enjoyable? Perhaps YOU don't think those foods enhance your quality of life, but I do. And when it comes right down to it, being happy will probably make you live longer and live better than a person who does all the "right things" but isn't happy. 

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/03/the-longevity-project-decades-of-data-reveal-paths-to-long-life/72290/

I agree with a lot of this. Yes, happiness is probably more important than making yourself miserable doing something you are highly averse to doing.

At the same time though, I think you're mistaking what changes are needed. Business and industry likes to create products to serve different people, which can be a good thing. But then, stupid products like the "organic gluten-free, dairy-free pizza" you mention are created that simply serve to try to let people have it both ways. Pizza should be enjoyed as pizza, not as some frankenstein invention to satisfy the organic, gluten-free, dairy-free crowd. Whenever these franken-dishes are created, I would be highly suspicious of the outcome in both taste and nutrition. Personally, I rarely have pizza anymore for the last 8 months since changing my diet. When I do eat it though as a treat, I eat it as it was meant to be from a really nice Italian pizzeria nearby.

Like I'm saying though, anyone interested in changing their diet should not expect to eat the foods they traditionally eat. A diet change is a big change. Instead of pizza and other cheesy fried foods, you would be having "green smoothies" for instance, and "wraps" and "brown rice-based dishes" and "soup dishes", etc etc. Basically more traditionally-prepared foods (except green smoothies, which are a modern invention that combine fruits and greens in a high-powered blender to achieve good taste AND good nutrition in a smooth, creamy smoothie). These can all incorporate healthy fat still, like healthy saturated fat from organic extra virgin coconut oil, or olives. They can also taste great still! There are plenty of spices and herbs and seasonings to flavor the food. You're also eating whole food-based fruits and vegetables and grains (like quinoa), which have tons of natural flavor.

Nothing I eat is "fake" (like fake pizza). Everything tastes pretty good. Otherwise, I would never eat it. And I do still have a "treat day," once a week in my case, where I eat high quality food (no junk food, fast food), and eat out at a nice restaurant. I still try to avoid meat especially though, if possible, simply because I have issues with the general quality of the meat supply in the U.S.

Still, if like you say, certain foods matter a lot to your quality of life and enjoyment, then I guess stick with it. Personally, I just restrict myself and now don't crave anything, as long as it's not at home. If it's at home though, I get cravings for the junk food and can't stop myself from eating some of it haha... perhaps because I eat it so rarely, so my body feels it's a treat. I'm also fairly young, so I can probably change my habits more easily than an older adult, who has lived a certain way for a lot longer than I have.

P.S. I should add something else. Nanno, your pizza example represents processed food, or food that has been made and served to you (in a restaurant) or made and preserved and sold in some store. The diet I advocate avoids all these processed foods, though. All meals (except 'treat day' meals) that I eat (and that I advocate eating) should be largely made by yourself. Obviously there are some exceptions, like certain breads, etc. but that can be counted as a raw material for a meal, and not an entire meal. Nut butters, etc. also count as processed in my opinion, since it can be easily made by yourself by taking whole nuts and grinding them in a blender. But yeah, avoid all processed foods and try to make as many meals as you can be yourself. It's not too hard or time-consuming at all, with the right tools.

edit: fixed typo (7/11)
post updated on Jul 11, 2012 @ 6:59pm
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 10, 2012 @ 10:00am

 newpower

Joined: Jun 20, 2010
Posts: 138

In summary, stop enjoying what you eat so you can add 5 or 10 years to the end of your life when everything is miserable.
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 10, 2012 @ 10:24am

 chi-ro

Joined: Dec 26, 2008
Posts: 3982
Location: The cluster behind you..

Under-Sheriff
To be fair, I'd hardly call it miserable to be on a diet like this. An interesting thing about humans is we can actually acquire a taste for anything. As long as your body can handle it, eventually you'll grow to like the taste of it.

Does that mean it taste better to you than bacon? No. But it's not like you'll be forcing something with the taste of garbage down your throat the rest of your life. Eventually you'll take a liking to it, or at least get over any distaste for it.

So, distaste isn't a reason not to partake in a diet like this.
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 10, 2012 @ 10:28am

 newpower

Joined: Jun 20, 2010
Posts: 138

The miserable part is the end of your life... not the diet. I agree that you end up getting used to the diet.
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 10, 2012 @ 10:47am

 chi-ro

Joined: Dec 26, 2008
Posts: 3982
Location: The cluster behind you..

Under-Sheriff
I see, I misunderstood. 

Still, not everyone's life is miserable in old age. But there's really no way to know one way or another till you get there. So I understand your point.
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 11, 2012 @ 7:08pm

 KlR4

Joined: Jan 5, 2012
Posts: 1564
Location: House Lannister

newpower said:
In summary, stop enjoying what you eat so you can add 5 or 10 years to the end of your life when everything is miserable.

Uh, no. If you read the entire argument, like the part back on page 3, you would see this has nothing to do with adding 5-10 years. It has to do with adding around 20-30 years actually AND it has to do with making the quality of your life at 40+ years old just as high quality as when you are younger than 40. So, no middle/old age weakness and disease and dozens of medications, etc etc.

For that matter, this also has to do with enhancing the overall quality of your life at EVERY AGE, too. What do I mean? I mean having optimal physical health and optimal mental health (achieving your brain's potential). Most everything has to do with having good nutrition and good exercise. I'd rather derive less pleasure from "food that one traditionally likes to eat" and deal with "healthy" food... and instead get more of my pleasure and happiness from LIFE and what I DO in life.

Here's what I said earlier, copied for your pleasure:

The purpose is also not to "add 10 years", but to live HEALTHIER for LONGER... and sure, also to live much, MUCH longer, perhaps instead of dying at 90 to dying at 120.

These images kinda illustrate what I am saying:







post updated on Jul 11, 2012 @ 7:14pm
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 12, 2012 @ 9:01pm

 newpower

Joined: Jun 20, 2010
Posts: 138

I'm saying that you will be miserable because your retirement money is probably gone if you live for so many years. The way society is organized right now does not contemplate many people living 100+ years. 
I'm curious about that disease that will give you "just a few months of illness before death", what is it?
Re: Chat Discussion: Healthy Diets :: Jul 12, 2012 @ 9:20pm

 KlR4

Joined: Jan 5, 2012
Posts: 1564
Location: House Lannister

I'm saying that you will be miserable because your retirement money is probably gone if you live for so many years. The way society is organized right now does not contemplate many people living 100+ years.

Retire later than current retirement age? Instead of 60, or whatever it is, keep working a bit longer. The retirement age is not binding.

and/or

Manage your retirement money well and make wise investments to keep money coming in during later years?

I'm curious about that disease that will give you "just a few months of illness before death", what is it?

I don't really know, perhaps your heart might become too worn out and eventually just fail? Or some other vital organ might fail. The point though is not to age quickly after age 40 for the next 40 or so years until 80 and die. The point is to age 'gracefully' and keep your organs and organ systems working well. Of course, at some point whether or not you have been taking care of the body properly, the body is going to become too old and worn out and fail (die). That's a natural lifespan and you can't really change that without some technological intervention. But I don't think we're near our natural lifespans yet. In the last 100 years, we've gone from dying at 40 to dying at 80, on average. And there are people at these late ages who are plenty healthy still and look decades younger. Living healthy vital years in the 40-80 period is a bigger goal/concern of mine than simply trying to live longer from 80 to 120. Living longer is a nice side benefit too though...

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